Sara Carnegie (SC): Hello and welcome to the second series of the International Bar Association's Inspirational Legal Women podcast. Our aim is to celebrate a small number of our female members who have achieved great things and contributed so much of their time and energy to the IBA. I'm here today with Fiona McLeod, a senior counsel with more than 30 years’ experience practising across Australia in commercial and public law, including doing considerable work on class actions and royal commissions. She is presently a senior officer of the IBA, notably within the Bar Issues Commission, and has also been on the advisory panel for the Phase Two part of our longstanding Raising the Bar: Women in Law initiative.
Fiona has received numerous awards for her work. I won't list all of them now, but they are an extraordinary testament to her intellect, dedication and force. Her honours include being appointed Officer of the Order of Australia in the 2020 Australia Day Honours for distinguished service to the law and to the legal profession at the national and international level, and to women lawyers, as well as receiving the Victorian Bar Pro Bono Trophy in 2025 for outstanding individual pro bono contribution. Fiona has urged the legal sector to aim higher in female representation at the senior legal levels and to confront barriers that have historically limited women’s progression. She has held leadership roles that have allowed her to push these reforms, including serving as President of the Law Council of Australia, the Australian Bar Association, the Victorian Bar and Australian Women Lawyers. She was also one of the first co-chairs of the IBA's Diversity and Inclusion Council, which helped to initiate the IBA Women in Law project in 2021. It has been a real honour to get to know her and her work over the last few years.
SC: Lovely to see you, Fiona. Really great to be speaking with you and thank you so much for agreeing to be part of our second series. I'm really delighted that you agreed to be one of our guests and I really wanted to explore with you the defining moment when you decided to go into law, if there was such a thing. What inspired you to pursue the legal profession as a career?
Fiona McLeod (FM): Well, thank you very much for your warm welcome, Sara. It's an absolute honour to be here. I started out my journey in the law with really no clue about why I was doing it, beyond the fact that it wasn't medicine and a little bit of rebellion in me had me doing law instead of medicine, so I wasn't competing with my genius older sister. I loved public speaking and debating, and no doubt some wise counsellor suggested law or, I think, stand-up comedy. So, I think at that time, I chose the path that seemed a little bit easier with law.
But there have been a number of times when I knew I was in exactly the right place. And the first was at university after my, you know, disinterested start when a very eminent professor explained the role of human rights, critical to protecting citizens against the overreach of the state and the role of international law. And it was like a light went off in my head, and I thought, oh, that's why I'm here. Then there have been times working on cases where suddenly things come together, where you feel like the judge really got the point of the case or the human element to the case and leave court with a sense of ‘yes, I nailed that’, of having actually changed someone's mind.
There have been a number of individual cases that have moved me, and in fact, I believe changed me most profoundly because I've carried those stories with me in my heart. Those people and their circumstances have been such that describing them in their circumstances to a court or a tribunal have actually changed me and I think the way I see the world. So those moments are very reassuring in terms of, are you in the right place?
SC: I've seen and heard you speak about the different significant cases that you've experienced and worked on from royal commissions, class actions, human trafficking. Was there a particular case that pivotally shaped where you are today that you can think of? I mean, there've probably been several given what you've done, but was there any particular one that gave you a sense of something more profound?
FM: Well, you mentioned the human trafficking and the first time I really had that experience of knowing I was in the right place using my skills for good instead of evil as it were is I had this experience acting for a 13 year old Thai girl who'd been trafficked into Australia for sex work. She was 13 years old at the time she was trafficked into a brothel in Sydney. She was broken by her recruiters. She was forced to have sex with over 100 men until she was picked up in an immigration raid and deported back to Thailand. And so, I worked with her and those who were supporting her, conceiving of a way to obtain justice for her as a victim of crime. And that moment really had an enormous ripple effect through my life from that time on, realising the devastating impact of a global problem on one person and seeing how the law could be used to help her and eventually many others. And personally, coming to a sense that there is a great joy and reward in an act of service like that, using one's talents to create change for good.
SC: Yeah, I can very much empathise with that, having done significant work myself on human trafficking and child sex abuse cases and seeing how that remains a global issue of phenomenal proportions. It really is quite an extraordinary area of work to be involved in, so thank you for your extraordinary efforts in that respect.
You've worked across class actions, as I mentioned, and inquiries and you've led major legal organisations like bar associations, the Law Council, etc. But I want to bring us back into the context of how women are seen and accepted in the profession, particularly in the context of their working and attainment of senior roles. We've been working, as you know, on the International Bar Association's project since 2020 together. You were instrumental in its creation and its definition in those early stages. And I wonder in your context of having practised in law for several decades, what you've seen in terms of how women are accepted and supported, particularly from the perspective of you working within the bar, but also perhaps more broadly within the Australian legal profession.
FM: Thank you for that acknowledgement, Sara, but I do want to acknowledge that it's been your carriage of that project that has resulted in the most excellent report, Raising the Bar, and where we are now with it. It's been your dedication to the work and your team who've worked with you. So, yes, we collaborated and we had great ideas that we tossed around. I wanted to do a project on all women, not just women in law, and you produced something that was manageable, designed the methodology, and so on. So, I think it's important that we sisters in law support each other and acknowledge the work that each of us does.
Over the decades, I think, coming to your question, over the decades I've seen, the few become the many. Although numbers of women in the profession still lag at the senior levels particularly, and there's work to do. I've seen the profession unite behind the aspiration of equality of opportunity and participation and throwing the purchasing power of the firms, the major clients and governments behind that, which can really actually make a difference in terms of women's choices about how they work, how they progress. What level they want to work at, and when they want to do that, because none of us are locked in stone, our circumstances change, and as our circumstances do change, we want to have the freedom to throw ourselves into as much work as we want to, but I've also seen the sisters in law that I was talking about supporting each other with strong networks and organisational supports where before it was pretty much the lone champion here or there battling it out.
SC: You've possibly seen, forgive me if not, the very recently launched Women in Law report on Australia and the numbers were reasonably encouraging in some of the legal sectors but in fact were still very poor for the bar, particularly women reaching senior counsel levels such as yourself. Do you think that there's a particular issue with the bar? Given your experience there, is there a differentiator between what you're seeing in other legal sectors compared with the bar in Australia?
FM: I think the support for women barristers is there with large organisations, large firms and governments, but there's still the mindset that persists and it's very pernicious and very hard to change that the face of a lawyer, particularly if it's bet the company litigation, the face of the lawyer is a man and people are assured by you know, the shiny young man who comes with all his talents, whereas they don't look for that necessarily in a woman, because otherwise we would see a pipeline delivering the very encouraging numbers of young women coming out of university and coming out the firms to the bar. We would see that progressing to greater numbers at senior level.
And I don't think it has anything to do really with the fact that we're no good, the fact we don't have the talent, because obviously we're exceeding at universities and we're participating in everything university life throws at us. So, the only explanation I have beyond women's choices to go and work in other capacities is that the systemic issues remain and they make it very difficult for women to progress in a world at the bar where you are totally reliant on others for your work stream.
When you work independently, as a barrister does, you don't have that comfort. You might have chambers who you know, silk might look out for you, but once you're a senior junior, that might happen less often. We just don't have the structures in place to make sure those women are nurtured right through and are obvious candidates for silk. So, that when justices come to make the decision about who to appoint, or the bars make the decisions about who to appoint, there is this pool of people ready with their hands up saying, pick me.
SC: Yeah, I think the figures were 30 per cent of practitioners at the bar were women, but only 16 per cent were at SC level, which I think is that the figures in the United Kingdom are not great either, but I haven't got the most up-to-date data. But as a fellow barrister as well, it just struck me as a little depressing that that was still lagging behind so much compared to the judiciary, in-house, public sector and private sectors that we've looked at.
FM: When we started looking at the data, the senior women were about ten percent and judicial officers was well below even 30 percent. Today, judicial officers in terms of new appointments are up around 50 percent and that might be a problem for the numbers of women silk because they're the ones, they're the talent pool who are being appointed. But you just don't have that number going from ten per cent of senior women to 16; it's pretty disappointing really over that period of time. For me, that's been about 30 years.
SC: Our forthcoming global report that you've been part of in the context of the advisory panel, it brings together insights from over 5,000 women in the legal profession across 100 countries. We've been working on the recommendations with a number of different IBA entities to try and ensure that the proposals that are being made are realistic and credible. Are there any themes that you hope the profession will take to heart or particular recommendations that stand out as most urgent?
FM: I think the most urgent issue for women is that we need to feel safe and supported at work, to be free to aspire to the highest level of appointment and to have our contribution welcomed and rewarded. We need to be able at all stages of our career to make genuine choices about how we work, which is unfettered by bias, aggression, discrimination, low or no pay and expectations. And I call all of that safety, and I think safety really is the critical issue because the number of times we have complained about bad behaviour and feeling unsafe in our workplace against senior judges and senior barristers or senior partners in law firms, you would think those complaints would translate into zero tolerance. But still, we have to agitate this case. It's like there's a limitation of actions on our grief and our outrage that we aren't treated fairly and safely at work. So, I really feel the safety of women and the need to support them to work freely at the highest level that they wish to work is the real issue.
SC: Thank you. I mean, let's hope that we gain some real interest and real momentum around the recommendations and the report itself in a similar way to how we did with the bullying and harassment work that was done several years ago, Us Too, which again is going back to what you've just said, really demonstrated the concern as to women working in the profession at all levels in all countries of the world. As to the prevalence of bullying and sexual harassment, I think it was one in three women in law were experiencing sexual harassment which is just completely unacceptable.
So, on a personal note Fiona, I wonder if you can tell us anything that's helped sustain you over the years given the different experiences that you've had and whether you've any particular moments of challenge that you have been able to overcome.
FM: I think for me, my deep friendships with my sisters in law is my greatest comfort. We discover when we share that we're all going through the same things, not necessarily at the same time, but, you know, this judge was critical of me, or I couldn't get this done in the middle of the night, and the kids wouldn't go to sleep, and fighting with the husband, or, I've got ill health with my parents. You know, we're all going through these things. And the ability to share with close friends, as we've all become more senior, really gives me the greatest support and is my greatest strength.
My family, particularly my parents, encourage me to do a couple of things. First, do what you love. Second, do it well. And if you don't do what you love, you probably won't be doing it that well. They also showed me by example that there is great joy in the service of others. So, using your skills, whatever they may be, your love of solving problems, your love of delving into the law, your empathy with people and drawing out the best in them, or hearing their story in a way that makes a difference for how you present a case in court. Using those skills in the service of others really is the gold standard for how I want to practise as a lawyer.
SC: I think testament to that is the work you've done on pro bono which I know we've spoken about in the past and you've been honoured and received an award last year in respect of that. So that sense of service to others isn't only about the remuneration by any stretch; it's about what does that look like in terms of value add, doing good, doing the right thing and recognising access to justice is the thread that runs through it. I am grateful to you for saying that and for that beautiful thing your parents said about do what you love and do it well. It resonates with me very much and I think is a really valuable guiding star for people to be leading their lives and their work in particular.
Can I ask, just as a final point, what message of encouragement you might give to young women entering the profession today? Any wisdom to impart?
FM: I think first I would say there is no right way to be a lawyer. Don't be afraid to be yourself and to express yourself as a human being in the practise of the law. I think bringing your innate skills and your personality, your differences, to work can create a better quality of lawyering. So that's the first thing.
The second thing I think I would say is that when it gets hard, and it will get hard sometimes, take time to ground yourself and surround yourself with the things that bring you strength and joy. Those things are very important and at the end of the day those are the things that will sustain you through difficulty and be worthwhile at the end of your life.
And the final thing I think I would say is that when women can see the contribution that they can make to the profession and to our community, they're unstoppable. So, watch out world.
SC: Fiona, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. I always love speaking to you, but really enjoyed your wisdom today. Thank you very much indeed.
FM: Thank you, Sara.