Inspirational legal women: a conversation with Associate Justice Mary-Jane Ierodiaconou

Isla Tobin (IT): Hello. I’m here today with Associate Justice Mary-Jane Ierodiaconou, a member of the Australian judiciary and a passionate advocate for the wellbeing of those working in the legal profession.  

It’s wonderful to speak with you today, Mary-Jane, and we are delighted that you’re taking part in the IBA’s Inspirational Legal Women podcast series to celebrate some of our incredible members and their achievements and careers in the legal profession.

By way of introduction, you’re an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia, which is the highest court in the state. Prior to your appointment in 2015, you worked as an employment lawyer and co-founded female-led collaborative Australian law firm, Justitia, in 2005, where you were a managing partner. You have recently been appointed as a Commissioner of the IBA’s Professional Wellbeing Commission.

We’re here today to talk about your work as a lawyer, judge and champion for legal wellbeing, some of the challenges and experiences you have had in your career, the transition from lawyer to judge, and any advice you may have for women entering or navigating their own career in the law.  

Welcome, Mary-Jane.

Mary-Jane Ierodiaconou (MJI): Thank you, Isla, and that’s a very kind introduction.

IT: Well, it’s a pleasure to have you on. So, thank you for joining us today.  

I’d like to start with what motivated you to pursue a career in the law, and how did you decide what type of law was of most interest to you?

MJI: I always had a passion for social justice, equality of opportunity, and I thought that doing a law degree would give me the tools to basically make society a better place. So that was my motivation for going to law school and I think behind that was my family background; I grew up in a very large, multi-cultural family. I grew up in a working-class suburb of Melbourne. I was able to see how people live their lives in diverse ways and see the benefits of opportunity where that arose and people were given the chance to say have a great education, access to career opportunities, and also to see what happened when those opportunities weren’t available.

IT: And I’m sure many of those things are reasons for joining the profession that many of our members and listeners can relate to as well. So, my second question was about what area of law you’re interested in, and how did you come to that decision? Because I know that’s a key choice for many juniors within the profession is how to decide what area of law to start in or perhaps up to move to later in their careers. So, I’m interested to hear from you about how you decided on employment law. 

MJI: I had a parallel career before I was appointed. So, one part of my career, which wasn’t in the corporate space, was in the pro bono space and it was in refugee and immigration law. So, I’ll just mention how I came to work in that area first. So, when I was at law school, I studied immigration law and I had a very inspiring lecturer, Professor Kim Rubenstein, and as part of our assessment, she gave us a few practical options, observing at a tribunal or going to observe at the Refugee and Immigration Legal Centre, or it was actually the predecessor body. And that was a centre that’s provided pro bono advice to refugees and immigrants. I went to observe at that centre.

Immediately I could see there was this unmet legal need and this centre was providing services to try and meet that need and in a really empathetic way that gave people practical advice, and excellent advice I have to say. So, when I finished law school, I went into a corporate law firm, but I also began working as a volunteer at that centre, at the night service. So, it was a drop-in service, and you’d arrive and there’d be a supervising coordinator and there would literally be a room full of people and you’d just get through as many people as you could. But listening to their stories very keenly to give the advice in a way that they understood, and often using the telephone interpreter service, I think helped keep me very grounded even though I went on to work in a very high office tower in a very lovely workplace.

So, the other part was going into employment and discrimination law and again at university I had another inspiring lecturer, Professor Jenny Morgan, and I undertook feminist legal theory with her. And when I had my first internship with the law, there was a case that I was asked to work on. The firm had taken on a pro bono case for a woman who’d been sexually harassed and so I worked under the supervision of the lawyers on that. I realised, when I was working on that, that my studies in feminist legal theory could be applied in practice to a discrimination and law practice, so that’s how I came to be working in those areas.

IT: I think it’s probably music to the ears of our Australian listeners that legal theory can in fact be applied when practising later in their careers, so thanks Mary-Jane.

I’m curious to know you’re obviously in a very busy job, and I’d like to know how do you balance the demands of such a high-pressure career with personal and family responsibilities? And are there any strategies or habits that have been particularly helpful to you that you would like to share with our listeners?

MJI: I've always meditated and that’s been really important for my self-care. The other thing that I've always done is yoga. And these morning practices for me, I think they set me up really well for the day; they carve out a space for me and they help give me perspective for the day that’s coming. So often we get worried about things that actually never happen and a meditation practice is a very good way of keeping you focused on the now.

I always do a form of physical exercise, whether that’s walking or getting to the gym, and something creative. So, it might be creative writing, I keep a creative journal; I also sing so being in a community choir has been a really important thing for me.

I think the main thing is to realise that we have to prioritise our wellbeing. If we don’t, we will find that our boundaries are very amorphous. So, it’s up to us to prioritise our wellbeing. Saying that, there’s things that all of us can do in the workplace to put into place systems that promote wellbeing and prevent psychological distress. So, we can all have a role to play in implementing those types of systems.

IT: Absolutely. I think there’s both, you know, looking after one’s wellbeing on the individual level, but as you say, I think the obligation of organisations to look after their employees too, in that aspect of life. I’m curious to know, how did you come across meditation? What inspired you to take up that practise?

MJI: I read a book on meditation when I was studying my first degree, which was an arts degree. I thought I would try it and I went to some classes and found that it was really something for me. I should say too that, with all of these things, finding your tribe, so having a group of people around you who can encourage you in those well-being activities, is really important. So, my yoga teacher is an important person for me in my life, but so are the other people that I practise yoga with. I attend a weekly meditation class and again that’s a community that supports one another. So, I think it’s important to have those connections and often it’s not just connections in the workplace, but beyond the workplace with people who you have positive relationships with.

So often when we’re under strain or stress we feel that we just want to crawl under the doona or we want to just keep our head down, burrow and get on with our work and, counter instinctively, the best thing you can actually do is ensure you keep up your connections with other people at a time like that because we know that that is really, really important for our mental health, to have those connections and also to be able to reach out for help if you need it.

IT: Absolutely. Thanks for those insights and I think important to have those connections both within and outside of the law can help with a bit of perspective sometimes or at least in my experience anyway.  

So, I’m curious to know what’s been the biggest challenge you’ve faced in your career and how did you navigate it? I don’t know if there’s a particular challenge or time in your life that springs to mind, but it would be very useful to hear those insights from you.

MJI: There’s been a lot of challenges along the way. One of them that comes to mind was really the decision to leave large law firms and the security that was offered there and to start my own practise. So, my friend and I had been practising in big law firms for about a decade when we decided that we would leave and start our own practice. Some people felt that could tell us that we were crazy. Why would you leave behind this career that you have here? But we really believed in what we were doing. We wanted to set up a law firm with a particular culture around flexibility and we wanted to service our clients in a different way. And although we had considered the risks, we’d also consider the opportunities. We were careful about weighing up those risks. We felt that there were more opportunities than risks though, and we had one another. We had supportive families as well.

So, I think that sort of challenge was met by having a conviction about what we were doing. It was certainly in accordance with my personal values and having strong support from others to do that.

IT: Wow, I mean that’s very inspiring and certainly at the time, and I think a good reminder to us all that with great opportunity there is always some risk and a good reminder to take that leap in life where you do have the faith and convictions.

As a judge, what strategies have you used to establish your credibility and assertiveness in what remains a male-dominated area of the profession, particularly at its senior levels?

MJI: When you’re in the courtroom, you are obviously in a position of power. I think it’s actually about being very mindful about how you exercise that power. There’s a lot of ritual and rules around that. Outside of the courtroom the court is still a workplace. And again, as a judge you hold a lot of power and it’s being mindful and self-aware about how you do that.

Probably the biggest issue that I have faced is unconscious bias. I’ve been able to navigate through that because I understand unconscious bias, but also I’ve had very strong support personally and professionally from my colleagues. But there have been certainly times when I have been outside of the court at functions and things like that where I’ve been introduced as a judicial officer and people have looked at me and thought, oh, really? There’s been a few times where I’d been introduced just with my name and then someone has added, oh, and that I have been appointed. And people have presumed that I’ve being appointed to the magistrate’s court or to a lower court than the Supreme Court. And I think that view has come because of my age perhaps, there might be unconscious bias about my ethnicity and gender, perhaps it’s been all three, and it’s just having those sort of strong interventionist strategies with yourself and saying okay that’s what they think, I think this is what it is, I think it’s unconscious bias and not letting that affect your own self-belief, because otherwise you can suffer from imposter syndrome. It’s really important to understand how bias can work in practice.

IT: Absolutely. And, you know, those are examples that it can affect somebody even at the highest levels of the profession and that we do have to keep an eye out for it but remain, you know, remain confident that we’re in the positions we’re for a reason.

It must have been quite a change for you going from being a practising lawyer to a judge. How did you adapt to the role and the different set of expectations that comes with it?

MJI: It was a big transition. The number one thing I would say is having collegiate support. So, I didn’t know what the workplace culture was going to be like in the court when I arrived; it was a new culture for me. I, however, had really strong collegiate support even though I was the youngest judge by quite a few years at that time. So that was a big help. 

The other thing is the mindset of growth. So, rather than saying ‘I know everything’, being very open to learning and being very open to asking people for help when you need help. Going into that knowing you don’t have to be the smartest person in the room; you’re there to listen and to make a decision objectively, considered and in a compassionate way. So, acting with integrity always is something that really is a given.

The other aspect of the transition was I went from working four days a week to full-time. That was a transition to go back to full-time. I had to put some strong personal boundaries in place around wellbeing and also ensuring that I took my holidays when they arose. I did have to make some changes, so dropping some of the extracurricular activities that I’ve been involved in, for instance, and again, just prioritising what’s most important to me, what am I doing that’s most in accordance with my values.

IT: A big change in many ways.

Finally, I’d like to know, what’s the best piece of advice you’d give to someone aspiring to succeed in law, particularly as a woman?

MJI: I think if you stop growing it’s time to move, and that comes back to having a growth mindset rather than a fixed mindset. If your career is stagnating you need to think about why that might be the case and whether or not it’s worth taking a risk, a considered risk to try something else, and that be moving to another type of law firm or it might be moving into the public sector, or it might be moving into a management role. But I think you have to be open to moving out of your comfort zone.

IT: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for the advice that we’ve just finished with and your time today. It’s been a real honour to have you on the podcast. So, thank you very much for joining us, Mary-Jane.  

MJI: Thank you, Isla.