Inspirational Legal Women podcast series launched by the IBA

Sara Carnegie (SC): I’m here today to speak with Deborah Enix-Ross, a US lawyer who it has been my absolute pleasure to get to know really well over the last few years since I started working at the International Bar Association. It’s great to speak with you again, Deborah, and I'm delighted that you’re taking part in our Inspirational Legal Women podcast series, which will celebrate some of our incredible members and their achievements and careers in the legal profession. 

By way of introduction, you are a US lawyer, and you work with Debevoise and Plimpton at their New York office, and I understand you’ve been with them at least 20 years. We’re going to hear a bit about your career in a few moments, but I should acknowledge that you were President of the American Bar Association in 2022-2023, and you’re now the Secretary General of the IBA so will hopefully be our President in a few years’ time.

You’ve done some remarkable things in your career, and I did note that in 2024, you were named on the Forbes List of America’s top 200 lawyers, which is pretty incredible given there are 1.3 million lawyers there. 

So, we’re here to talk about what you’ve done, some of the challenges and experiences you’ve had, and any advice that you may have for those entering or navigating their own career in law. 

Deborah Enix-Ross (DER): Well, thank you, Sara. It’s really an honour to be asked to participate and I think it’s an extraordinary time and having these kinds of podcasts are very valuable. So again, thank you for allowing me to be a part of the conversation. 

SC: Wonderful. I think we ought to start at the beginning really, that's the place to begin is the career choice that you've made and what motivated you to pursue a career in law, and how did you decide what type of law was of most interest to you? 

DER: I think it is important to think about why I became a lawyer and I would say my answer is in two parts. The first is that when I was in sixth grade - and I grew up in New York City public, as in not private, schools - we went on a field trip, and those of us who can remember, in those days, it’s very exciting to get out of the classroom and go out into the city. And our field trip was to the New York City courts and we entered a beautiful courtroom and there was a man sitting up high with a black robe on and he seemed to know everything, and he was in charge, but fair. I thought, who is that? And I asked my teacher, who’s that? And she said, that’s the judge. I said, oh, what do you have to do to be a judge? She said, you have to be a lawyer. I think that was the first indication that was something I might want to do. 

Then, fast forward, I went to university. I attended the University of Miami. I went as a journalism major. I like to tell people I fancied myself being Oprah Winfrey before there was an Oprah Winfrey. And I had this wonderful internship in my senior year of college at a local television station, but I noticed two things. One, the female reporters did not look like me at all. They all had a certain look; it wasn’t like me. Secondly, the female reporters that got the best assignments were friendly with the station manager. Now this was before the Me Too movement and I thought I need something, a career that is less dependent on how I look and more about what I bring and the skills that I have. I got the idea that I will combine my journalism degree with my childhood interest in being a lawyer and become a First Amendment lawyer or a freedom of the press lawyer. So that’s how I entered law school thinking that that would be the career that I was interested in. 

Along the way, I took courses that broadened my horizon, and I ended up deciding that what I really liked was international law and litigation. And I began my career as a litigator in legal aid and in various positions, ultimately becoming the US representative for the ICC Court of Arbitration, which is based in Paris, and then moving to Switzerland to work for the World Intellectual Property Organization in the Arbitration Center, and then ultimately at Debevoise now as a Senior Advisor on Global Engagement for our International Dispute Resolution Group. So that’s a shortened version of 40 years of practising law. 

SC: That’s amazing, and I think what was interesting in hearing you begin that story was the sense of what a woman perhaps needed to do in order to get on in a career, and you mentioned that was in the media world. I think we all know that there are plenty of stories in the legal world as well that led to some pretty bad scandals over the last 30, 40 years. And I think it’s great that we’re continuing to do work on bullying and sexual harassment and to see if we can really eradicate that and make it a thing of the past. It’s such an insidious problem, but in the legal profession it feels even worse given the type of work we do and the authority and integrity which we have. 

DER: Yeah, I do think, for me, part of the process was always liking the independence of being a lawyer and thinking that if no one would hire me, I remember thinking this very clearly in law school, that if no one would hire me, then I could, as we say in the US, put out my own shingle and be my own boss. And so that was very attractive to me, as well as the idea of law and the idea of helping people and being a problem solver, but it didn’t go unnoticed for me even then that there is a level, I thought, of independence in the law that perhaps women weren’t experiencing in other professions at the time. Remember, I came out of law school in 1982, so we’ve come quite a way since then. 

SC: I think the demands of a high-pressure career for women in particular remain still something of a challenge. I know there have been improvements in the workplace and we've been doing a lot of work to understand and to promote initiatives which really help with that work-life balance, but how have you found that over the years and have there been any strategies that have been particularly helpful to you or career choices that you think have eased that in some way?

DER: Yeah, I think it’s an important discussion and for me, it was important to keep in mind that you have different priorities at different stages in your career. I think sometimes we fall into the trap of women in particular that it has to be all right away. And I remember there were times, take my involvement in bar associations, there were times when I could be more involved and then there were times when I was less involved, I had to step back. And that correlated with either family commitments or work commitments, but I always maintained a level of involvement because I felt it was important for my own development, both professionally and also giving back to the profession. But there’s nothing wrong with stepping back and saying at this moment in my career or at this period of time, I’m not able to do all of the things that I would like to do because these other areas take priority. And it could be a new job or a more intense phase in your job. It could be your family, it could be other reasons as well, but that’s okay. Managing that, to me, is really what is the key, and not thinking that you must do all things all the time, every time. 

SC: A lot of women fall into that trap, personally speaking, and knowing many that feel that pressure of multitasking. What has been the biggest challenge that you’ve faced in your career, and how did you navigate that? 

DER: Recently, there have been attacks on DEI – diversity, equity and inclusion – but that’s not new. So again, I graduated from law school in 1981, which means I went in in 1978, and that was at the time when the US had a number of what we then called affirmative action cases. And I remember going to my law school classes the first year and people would say to me, you’re only here because of affirmative action, like you don’t really belong here. And people said that; I mean it wasn’t that they implied it, they literally said it to my face. And I have rather thick skin – I mentioned I’m from New York, so I’m a bit tough – and I remember saying, that’s okay, I’m not going to take the affirmative action bar exam. So, no matter how I ended up in law school, I’m going to take the same bar exam that everyone else who wants to be admitted and licensed in law is going to take and we’ll see what happens then. I’ll either pass the bar and become a lawyer or I won’t. 

Now I should not have had to face that. No one should have to face those kinds of attacks, but we’d be naive if we don’t think those things exist. And so you have to decide, are you going to let someone stand in the way of what your goals are and what you want to achieve? And for me, the answer was no, I’m going to push forward. It may take me longer. It may be harder. It may be that my road is different, but I have a goal in mind, and I am going to do everything in my power to achieve that goal. 

SC: Certainly done that Deborah. I mean, I don’t know whether your different career phases have always been relatively male-dominated. We know that the legal workplace is changing and that there are larger numbers of female graduates and junior lawyers coming through, but at the top we’re still seeing tapering-off effect at more senior levels. But what strategies have you used to establish credibility and to assert yourself in a male-dominated world? 

DER: So I’m glad you said that, because first of all said I ended up have a career now in international arbitration but it took me seven years to get my first job in international law and that was this job as the US representative for the ICC Court of Arbitration but that came after seven years of doing other types of legal work and so now I have got this, what I thought, was my dream job. You know, you’re the US representative, the court is in Paris, my job is to go to Paris, represent the US. 

I set up some meetings for the first time to go. And this was before email, you know, it was even in some ways before fax, so really setting up a meeting was a big deal. If you said to someone, I’m going to meet you on this day at this time, it was really difficult to not be there at the appointed date and time because you didn’t have cell phones to say, I’m going to be late or change it. Anyway, I go off to this meeting in Paris at a private club. I walk in and they tell me in French, you can’t come in. And I’m thinking, boy, my French is pretty rusty – I thought I spoke pretty good French – and so I repeated it. And the man said, no, I understand what you said, but you can’t come in; this is a private club, and women aren’t allowed. And so, what had happened was the men, because it was a group of lawyers with whom I was meeting, were all male lawyers. They were accustomed to going to this club; it never dawned on them that it was a male-only club and women weren’t allowed. I was like, but I have to go up to this room. And finally, the maître d’ relented and said, you can come to the meeting room, but you have to go around the back through the kitchen, the back stairs. And for a variety of reasons, being African American, you know, there are some negative, beyond negative connotations, to that. But I decided I’m going to do it because again, it took me seven years to get this job, it was really important. So, when I walked into that room through the kitchen, they all looked at me and asked, why was I coming that way? And I said, well, this club doesn’t allow women. And they were mortified. They said, this will never happen again. We went on with our meeting and then we had great relationships and did very well with that committee for years to come. And they, true to their word, did not go back to that club until it admitted women. So that was my introduction to what was then a male-dominated area of the law, international arbitration. 

So, what did I do? When I had the opportunity to appoint arbitrators, US arbitrators, I made sure that there were women. And so that was my way of breaking one barrier and then making sure that other women did not have to face that. I was involved in a group called Arbitral Women, it was women who were involved in international arbitration. It has taken off, it’s a global organisation now, and I’m really proud of the work that they do and the ways that we have sought to bring more women and more diversity into the international arbitration arena. 

SC: That’s fantastic to hear, and yeah, I think it’s like many areas of law which perhaps have traditionally been male-dominated or dominated in danger, being part of the IBA’s efforts to try and promote that is also extremely rewarding. And speaking of diversity as well in the context of your global experience, you mentioned previously that you lived in Geneva. I don’t know if you can tell us a little more about how you adapted to working in a different legal system or living in a different country. 

DER: As I said, I mentioned I lived in Geneva. I worked for the World Intellectual Property Organisation, a UN organisation. The UN is its own organism, so its own cultural experience, but I will say, first of all, I learned that I was more American than I thought I was. I think of myself as a New Yorker, but outside of the US, people really do think of me as American. So that was eye-opening, and I do have certain traits, I think, that can be put to being American. But I also recognise while there are cultural differences, the real key is to be open and to understand your way of doing things is in fact your way, but it may not be the way or the only way. That was a very good experience for me, to be working with lawyers from around the world, different legal systems. It’s not just that it was civil law versus common law, but really different approaches and thinking about how do we get the result that we need by blending these differences in cultures and in legal systems. So, I just, I really enjoyed that aspect of working in that environment. 

SC: Yeah, and I’m convinced that that exposure to different systems and different cultures makes us better lawyers and better people, I think, just that level of understanding and tolerance and willing to be flexible. I certainly feel like in the last few years since working with so many different people, it has made an enormous difference to how I think, so the ability to have lived in a different country and to have gained from that I can imagine is very, it’s impossible to quantify, but hugely valuable. 

DER: If I had one worldwide wish, it would be that all of us, everyone in the world could experience living in a different country or a different culture, because I think it would really make for more understanding, maybe more appreciation, and it really would be valuable experience. 

SC: Particularly in today’s world, absolutely. I’ve got one final question or request from you, Deborah, which is really asking what your best piece of advice might be for somebody who’s looking to succeed in law, particularly as a woman. What nuggets of wisdom can you impart? 

DER: Follow your passion. As I mentioned it took me seven years to get that first job in international arbitration, but I knew it was something that I wanted to do, so I followed that passion. And the second piece would be set your own timetable. Young lawyers think that they must come out and automatically be on a certain pathway and that if you’re not on that path within a certain period of time, you’re doomed. That’s not the case. If you are like me and you’re lucky, you're going to practise law for 40 plus years. That’s a long time, so you’ve got a little breathing room. Don’t think you have to achieve everything right away. So, follow your passion, set your own timetable, and then this one is really important to me, lift as you climb. You may be the first to do something, but don’t be the last. You may be the first woman, you may be the only woman, but make it your business to be sure that you’re not the last. 

SC: Fabulous. And that’s a really great place to end, but I absolutely love that mantra. It’s so important that powerful women, women who’ve achieved, can really lift people up behind them and offer that support and that real sense of mentorship and engagement with those behind them and beneath them. I think that’s a really fantastic final word. 

So, thank you for today, Deborah. It’s been an absolute pleasure and privilege to speak with you and we're really grateful for all you’re doing and will continue to do. 

DER: Thank you so much again for this opportunity, I really appreciate it.